Alignment Nonsense.

"Berang" (berang) 02/16/2019 at 21:55 • Filed to: None

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Having a discussion between some people about whether or not one should go in for an alignment on old or new tires. I hold that excepting some unusual circumstances, it doesn’t matter whether you have brand new tires or tires with some miles on them. I’ve basically been told I’m a complete moron and know nothing for stating this.

And yet, none of the people who’re telling me you NEED to have brand new tires on your car when going in for an alignment can tell me why. Just that old tires will mess up the alignment process. I’m sure this is mostly nonsense, even though online, this seems to be the general consensus.

Since most alignment tools mount to the rim, and have nothing to do with the tire, I cannot understand how old, worn tires would have any effect on the measurements. I concede that if the rims and tires were mismatched this would through off measurements - but that’s the only thing that makes any reasonable sense to me.

One could take the tires off the car, and put it on axle stands, and still do a proper alignment. So what the heck do the tires have to do with it? Is this just something shops tell people to scam them into a new set of tires?

I’ve done front end alignments myself, and I remember learning to do four wheel alignments, ages ago, using rim mounted laser tools at a Subaru dealer, and I just cannot fathom how having not brand new tires would screw it up. The “experts” who disagree with me haven’t given any reasons behind why, just that the tires do matter, and old tires will mess up your alignment. Are there any experts here who have an answer? (I’m assuming if it is true, it must be something fairly fundamental, just that supposed mechanics telling me otherwise aren’t actually mechanics and so don’t know the real reason).

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Berang 02/16/2019 at 22:17

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If you buy new tires, you should have your wheels aligned. What tires are on the car shouldn’t have any impact except maybe if they are different sizes or the rims aren’t the same size or are bent. That’s my $0.02.

facw > Berang 02/16/2019 at 22:18

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You are right and they are wrong. The tire should not make a difference for the alignment. It would take weird circumstances for it to matter. It’s really a matter of convenience. The only way order should matter is if you drive a lot on the new tires (or have a terrible alignment beforehand), since you can introduce extra wear until you have a proper alignment.

That said, I waiting until after getting the new tires on just because I wanted to make sure I was actually getting new tires before I scheduled the alignment.

vicali > Berang 02/16/2019 at 22:20

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They are confusing alignment and balancing maybe?

Berang > vicali 02/16/2019 at 22:31

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Nope. There was a question from a guy in a facebook group saying his dealer was telling him he needed new tires and an alignment, and he was wondering if both were necessary at the same time, or if he could do one at a time. Somebody, apparently from that dealer, gave a nonsense explanation for why they have to do both at the same time, and I had already replied saying it doesn’t really make a difference. I was told I was complete wrong and had no idea what I was talking about. I asked why the tires would matter and the answer given was “because they do matter!” and that I should shut up since I don’t do alignments.

I responded that I’ve rebuilt several front ends and aligned them, and was told this is irrelevant - still with no explanation about how tires would change the alignment. So ¯\_()_/¯

Google brings up a lot of people saying the same thing - but nobody is giving any explanation why.

Maxima Speed > Berang 02/16/2019 at 22:32

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I literally just asked my alignment guy about this last month as I had never had an alignment done on this car and wasn't familiar with the procedure. (Last time I had an alignment don I just dropped it off and picked it up). In any case he showed me how it mounts to the rim and that the wheels have absolutely nothing to do with it.

atfsgeoff > Berang 02/16/2019 at 22:35

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Unless your tires are REALLY f-ed up, like broken belts causing violent vibration at speed, then they won’t affect a fresh alignment any differently than brand new tires would.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Berang 02/16/2019 at 22:47

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i think the only reason is if you have fucked up tires, get an alignment and then complain that ride got worse. such as JRITS

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > Berang 02/16/2019 at 22:55

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This is the most batshit thing I have ever heard.

You perform an alignment based on the wear of your tires (though you should have it checked every oil change since it should take them less than 2 minutes.) When you get new tires put on, the alignment is checked to make sure it will not shred your new tires in 5000 miles.

Tristan > Berang 02/16/2019 at 22:58

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That’s a new one to me. Make sure you've got a fresh fuel filter before getting that alignment, too!

facw > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 02/16/2019 at 23:01

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I mean, getting the alignment done before/after mattering is wrong, but it’s nowhere near as weird as this:

How often should you get your alignment done? Some people say whenever you get your oil changed, or annually, or whenever you get your tires rotated. The right answer for you will depend on how you drive, and how shitty the roads are that you drive on.

My colleague Mike Ballaban does the alignment on his car twice a year, when he changes from winter to summer tires and vice versa, reasoning that the roads of New York City are shitty and he wants to get the most out of his tires. This seems prudent, though I will probably stick with doing it yearly

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Who get s their alignment done that often (besides Ballaban I guess)? Pretty sure your car is defective or badly abused (more than just driving on NYC roads).

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > facw 02/16/2019 at 23:11

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when i lived outside boston the local shop would do it with the tire change over. Given the shitty roads there were times i was way out and glad i wasn’t driving for 6 more months all fucked up. 

Alfalfa > Berang 02/16/2019 at 23:23

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No no, you’ve both got it wrong. What you need to do is make sure you have nitrogen in your tires. And not stale stuff, either, it needs to be fresh or it will throw the whole thing off.

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > Berang 02/16/2019 at 23:26

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You are correct.

I run 2 different sets of rims, steelies with winters and alloys with summers. I do not need to get an alignment everytime I switch them.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Berang 02/16/2019 at 23:35

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The Subaru dealer refused to do an alignment on our Outback unless we bought new tires (from them, of course). I said screw it and decided to take it to an an independent shop. 

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > facw 02/17/2019 at 00:15

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Shitty roads knock components around. BADLY. It only takes ONE pothole to fuck up the toe or camber and scrub your tread. Repeated potholes knocking your toe out 0.001" at a time, at 100 potholes, that’s 0.1" and you are now out of spec. Either way, you’re scrubbing your tires. I’ve had cars that I personally aligned to exact spec come in 3000 miles later out of tolerance just from bad roads. (But not enough scrub that I couldn’t rotate and preserve their life.)

Secondly, high performance cars demand more frequent alignments. Especially with significantly stiff suspensions. Because they place increased load on every single alignment adjustment point. I am so damn tired of this insane idea idiots keep spouting out there that “oh once you set an alignment it’s locked in.” If that were true, IT WOULD BE PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO ALIGN IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. You could NEVER fucking align a car after it left the factory, because the first time you hit a bump it would either permanently bind or just break. Not only that, but you would never need an alignment ever for any reason period. You don’t align the tires, you align the car, and if it was ‘perfectly locked in’ then every car would permanently have true-zero alignment from the factory and nothing but. And every set of tires would wear perfectly evenly under all conditions always .

Which is ALSO why Ballaban is doing it right . You align the car which in turn dictates to the tires. Because he wants to increase road compliance, alter handling characteristics, and change tire wear patterns between sets the correct thing to do is have the car aligned. Alignment does not mean a fixed set of numbers, period. It is numbers within an adjustment range and a specific tolerance. If I want to reduce wear on my Porsche’s rear tires, I may dial in a + 0.5deg camber. But if I want to increase grip at the cost of inner tread, I might go all the way to -1.0deg. I might have one side at -0.8 and the other at -1.0 ; those are all valid alignments with wildly different characteristics. If I switch to P295/30R19's, then the numbers change again to align the car to the tires. You don’t only get an alignment just b ecause it’s out of spec.

Also, a lignment adjusters MUST HAVE NON-ZERO GIVE . “Non-zero” means EXACTLY that - NOT zero. It may be 0.0001" of toe or it may be 0.01deg of caster or 0.001" of migration @ 20Hz over 60s. Depends entirely on what the designers and engineers decided on as acceptable and safe. And the more load, repeated strikes, and communicated vibration? The faster those non-zeroes add up. Like all things, it is a question of compromise. The more you crank up the grip, the less tolerance you have, and more you need to do to maintain it. If you want to reduce maintenance, you have to reduce the grip by introducing slop in the form of tolerance.

Which is why I have a car that I actually have to perform adjustments on every 3000 miles or less . Because the springs and shocks really are that severe that at 3000 miles, every time, it’s moved enough that another 3000 will be past skew limit. (And yes, it will shake your teeth out.) My only alternative would be to literally weld bolts, which would make it impossible to change handling characteristics. Or look at the NASCAR guys with the weird wrenches going in the back window - that’s alignment adjustment because it got loose or tight. Just how physics works.

Urambo Tauro > facw 02/17/2019 at 00:35

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That article you linked to was the perfect opportunity to ask something that had been on my mind for a while, yet kept forgetting to make a post about on Oppo: An alignment isn’t needed unless the vehicle loses its alignment, so how do those settings get lost in the first place?

Based on the responses I got, I think that the necessary frequency of alignments can certainly vary. The more potholes you encounter, or the more stress your driving habits induce on suspension bushings, the more likely you are to need more frequent adjustments. A particularly hard jostle can cause a camber bolt to rotate out of spec, and soft bushings will continue to flex until they lose their ability to keep bouncing back into their original shape. And of course age is a facto r too...

Twice a year is a pretty   good rule of thumb for those who live in pot-hole ridden states like mine, and while new tires don’t necessarily require the vehicle to need a fresh alignment, it’s convenient to at least have it checked while you’re at the shop anyway. And I would like to emphasize the word checked here, particularly because s ome shops offer free alignment checks. It may not even be necessary to perform an alignment, but regular checkups can give you a much better idea of how often your car actually needs an alignment .

facw > Urambo Tauro 02/17/2019 at 00:44

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Twice a year seems like serious overkill to me. Even living in place with rough roads, I had my previous car done once in 14 years (after sliding into a curb that required tie rod replacement). T his is probably too little, though I don’t rack up a ton of miles. Still I never had any pulling or uneven tire wear. Most things I see recommend around a 3 year interval, or when you get new tires (not because tires matter, but just because the wear interval is similar). Also of course if you notice pulling or uneven wear. You can argue that you won’t get uneven wear if you pree mptively do alignments, but it seems likely that you’ll spend more on alignments than you’ll save in reduced wear. You’re definitely right though that it’s good to have shops check the alignment when it’s in, and I do do that.

Urambo Tauro > facw 02/17/2019 at 01:00

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*nods* It has been overkill, in my personal experience. The number of times my own car has passed with flying colors suggests to me that once a year can be sufficient, sometimes closer to once every two years.

Though I mentioned that we have a lot of potholes around, I do try to avoid the harsher ones and slow down as necessary. It’s entirely possible that my situational awareness and consideration for my car might be skewing things in my favor. So when it comes to giving advice to the average driver, I would err on the side of caution and recommend more frequent checks until the listener/reader decides for themselves what an appropriate schedule is. And if they have access to a shop that offers free alignment checks, they can figure that out at minimal cost.  

AdverseMartyr > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 02/17/2019 at 07:00

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I think this is what people get confused about. Most people are probably bringing their car in with tires ruined by bad alignment, and all they want is tires, but the shop knows it’s a bad alignment and so just selling them tires doesn’t fix the actual problem.
And perhaps once they come in with illegal tires it becomes a problem for the shop to do the alignment for liability reasons because they touched the wheels, and could be blamed for tires blowing out, an accident that is ruled as having been caused because of bald tires, etc...

So it’s become a situation where if an alignment is necessary then the shop wants to put on fresh tires to always be able to say the car was perfectly legal when it left their shop.

DasWauto > Berang 02/17/2019 at 16:58

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Getting an alignment when you get a new set of tires is a decent practice, the other way around is nonsense.